Hypothetical Question

[jobless]

Being that the Draft Plan has been released and talks about work being completed to restore areas in which are now closed to motorized use, these would now be the non-motorized areas for hikers, bikers & equestrians.

Is the RTW going to volunteer to help rehabilitate these non-ORV areas?

If the answer is yes, please explain why and what it is we (motorized community) hope to get out of it?

I realize the RTW is supposed to be a non-biased org that represents all users but lets face it, 99% of the people who show up are from the ORV community.

Thanks
Brad

[crash]

Being that the Draft Plan has been released and talks about work being completed to restore areas in which are now closed to motorized use, these would now be the non-motorized areas for hikers, bikers & equestrians.

Is the RTW going to volunteer to help rehabilitate these non-ORV areas?

If the answer is yes, please explain why and what it is we (motorized community) hope to get out of it?

I realize the RTW is supposed to be a non-biased org that represents all users but lets face it, 99% of the people who show up are from the ORV community.

Thanks
Brad

Hard question brad. But my best answer is the fact the ORV cummunity created whatever mess needs to be repaired. So does that mean we should walk away from the responsability to correct the issue? In m bst answer IMO no..

Also from hat I have been told its mainly going to be a few stream crossings.

[The Shocker]

I would hope that RTW does indeed help no matter which area it is that needs work. We can help show both DNR and the hiker/Greenie community that motorized users can care about the forest and put efforts into protecting and repairing damages that have occured.

[jobless]

My point to this thread was that the ORV users currently have no access to Reiter, the hikers can currently go wherever they want, and we will have to pony up the man hours, equipment, etc...to make our "new area" useable.

Seems to me that we should be focused on providing manpower to the area set aside for ORV use.

Realistically, hiking, mountain biking and horse usage at Reiter is a farce. It has to be included because the DNR is governement, they are therefore required to include everyone so as to not discriminate.

I will not be helping unless it's in regards to the ORV area. I'm sure the DNR will dangle the typical carrot in front of us and say "this has to be done 1st and before you get your area" (this comes from experience at Walker Valley)...or something like that, with no assurance of the ORV crowd actually getting anything.

Brad

[crash]

My point to this thread was that the ORV users currently have no access to Reiter, the hikers can currently go wherever they want, and we will have to pony up the man hours, equipment, etc...to make our "new area" useable.

Seems to me that we should be focused on providing manpower to the area set aside for ORV use.

Realistically, hiking, mountain biking and horse usage at Reiter is a farce. It has to be included because the DNR is governement, they are therefore required to include everyone so as to not discriminate.

I will not be helping unless it's in regards to the ORV area. I'm sure the DNR will dangle the typical carrot in front of us and say "this has to be done 1st and before you get your area" (this comes from experience at Walker Valley)...or something like that, with no assurance of the ORV crowd actually getting anything.

Brad

I am pretty sure the work needed to corec th issues "we" as a usergroup have cased will be addressed befoe anything on the official ORV will be started. Thats how they addressed it at the meeting.

I do however undestand your agrument but case in point---we made the mess and we need to clean it up.

[jobless]

I am pretty sure the work needed to corec th issues "we" as a usergroup have cased will be addressed befoe anything on the official ORV will be started. Thats how they addressed it at the meeting.

I do however undestand your agrument but case in point---we made the mess and we need to clean it up.

Let's face it, the folks who fucked Reiter up by driving "everywhere", lets use Sac-Up as an example, won't be there to help...

The Greenies will not be there to help...

The Mt Bikers will not be there to help...

The Equestrians will not be there to help...

Will any of these folks come help with the new ORV area? No.

It's not a matter of who's reponsable Mike, it's simply a matter of who the DNR can get to do the work.

The DNR knows the RTW is full of folks who are eager to help, regardless of what it is knowing that they can string us along as far as they want without ever having to be held accountable for anything, including providing us a new place to wheel anytime soon.

I think it should go something like this when speaking with the DNR:

You want us to help with Reiter Foothills?

We want an ORV use area built with user input.

You provide us something in writing which includes a schedule, costs and how you are going to allocate the funds and we'll talk.

The RTW and all the volunteers have already accumulated 100's of hours volunteering at Reiter and the only thing we have seen is the whole area closed. And the dangling carrot of a new ORV area has been put out there...

Remember how I mentioned in the other thread that Reiter is a business?

They want....we want. They have the ability to provide us with an ORV area. We have the ability to provide volunteer hours, donate $$$ and provide equipment.

I'm merely suggestiong that like any business relationship, a Statement of Work (SOW) and/or contract be established outlining which each party can commit to.

Are you folks done working for free, seeing nothing in return except a mile of Eco-blocks and dozens closure signs?

Why does everyone have the mentality that we should always be happy with table scraps?

[crash]

Let's face it, the folks who fucked Reiter up by driving "everywhere", lets use Sac-Up as an example, won't be there to help...

The Greenies will not be there to help...

The Mt Bikers will not be there to help...

The Equestrians will not be there to help...

Will any of these folks come help with the new ORV area? No.

It's not a matter of who's reponsable Mike, it's simply a matter of who the DNR can get to do the work.



Respectfully--why should they help? They didn't do the damage. My main point is we have a responsability weater you agree or not. As I was growing up--I was taught to have personal responsability for my actions and for me personaly this type of stuff falls into that.

We all know who is mainly responsable for the damage.

Do you really want the DNR putting forth funds to fully repair the damage? Thats will just take away more funds that we could use productivly torwards whatever is to come regarding the ORV area.







The DNR knows the RTW is full of folks who are eager to help, regardless of what it is knowing that they can string us along as far as they want without ever having to be held accountable for anything, including providing us a new place to wheel anytime soon.

I think it should go something like this when speaking with the DNR:

You want us to help with Reiter Foothills?

We want an ORV use area built with user input.

You provide us something in writing which includes a schedule, costs and how you are going to allocate the funds and we'll talk.

The RTW and all the volunteers have already accumulated 100's of hours volunteering at Reiter and the only thing we have seen is the whole area closed. And the dangling carrot of a new ORV area has been put out there...

Remember how I mentioned in the other thread that Reiter is a business?

They want....we want. They have the ability to provide us with an ORV area. We have the ability to provide volunteer hours, donate $$$ and provide equipment.

I'm merely suggestiong that like any business relationship, a Statement of Work (SOW) and/or contract be established outlining which each party can commit to.

Are you folks done working for free, seeing nothing in return except a mile of Eco-blocks and dozens closure signs?

Why does everyone have the mentality that we should always be happy with table scraps?


There is still alot of unknowns and it makes it hard to comment until we fully know whats going on. For now we just have alot of speculation on he what is and what ifs.

As for nothing in return--myself I see this daily in typical life and for me--I just keep going forward. Is tha wrong or right? Heck how do we know that the efforts and work we have done to this point didn't prolong the enevable and we were able to get more time before i was closed? Nobody knows but myself I prefer to have faith in these kinds of things.

As a group we will work as hard as we can within our means and thats all we can do.

Plus we are hoping to build a relationship with other usergroups to assist in the needs of the DNR which you will see tonight by aninflux of single track folks..

[98ZJ4X4]

I was up to Reiter yesterday and I saw some of the work being done toward restoration by DNR and it was not all in the area listed as Non-Motorized Use.

Yes I will volunteer my hours where ever DNR would like to use them. I have not been a Wheeler long enough that I feel I have really added to any degrading of the area, but I can see it has been done and I have my opinions as to who hold the most responsibility.

But that is all history and we can not change it at this point so I chose to look forward and do what I can to get the crumbs as you call them from DNR or whom every that will provide any type of an ORV area for our use.

It does no good to compare Reiter to Walker Valley or any other area as Reiter is not like those areas except that they are all in the State of Washington.

Forget the Reiter of old, it is gone, now is the time to work for and toward the new Reiter, what ever it may become. It will become what we as users work to make it in a positive manner.

Ted

[jobless]

It does no good to compare Reiter to Walker Valley or any other area as Reiter is not like those areas except that they are all in the State of Washington.
Ted

Actually it does, they are both public lands managed by the same DNR office.

[jobless]

The mentality has to change. :mad::mad::mad:

This isn't organized religion and just having faith is not going to get you what you want.

[crash]

The mentality has to change. :mad::mad::mad:

This isn't organized religion and just having faith is not going to get you what you want.

So your saying its acceptale to destoy stuff and just walk away? Just because we are not going to use it anymore?

To me that just gives off a very bad image on behalf of wheelers more than anythng.

[jobless]

So your saying its acceptale to destoy stuff and just walk away? Just because we are not going to use it anymore?

To me that just gives off a very bad image on behalf of wheelers more than anythng.

No, I just said people need to change their mentality because faith is not going to get you what you want.

Please don't make assumptions based on what I wrote. My English and grammar skills are fairly good and I don't believe that I typed anything as to what you are implying.

I will be very clear on this. I am not here to improve the "image" of wheelers.

My only objective is getting an ORV area at Reiter in a timely fashion which includes getting something from the DNR that resembles a real plan with dates.

If you feel guilty and/or responsable for what has happened at Reiter over the past 2+ decades than that is something you will have to work out.

[crash]

No, I just said people need to change their mentality because faith is not going to get you what you want.

Please don't make assumptions based on what I wrote. My English and grammar skills are fairly good and I don't believe that I typed anything as to what you are implying.

I will be very clear on this. I am not here to improve the "image" of wheelers.

My only objective is getting an ORV area at Reiter in a timely fashion which includes getting something from the DNR that resembles a real plan with dates.

If you feel guilty and/or responsable for what has happened at Reiter over the past 2+ decades than that is something you will have to work out.

So keep this frm going off subject.
As for getting he ORV done in a timely manner--we want te exact same thing. But until certan things are done we simply cannot plan or prepair.

As for what work needs to be done (rehab) we have no idea.

As for the actual ORV area--again until the public input period is over and the DNR has put something into stone we truely know nothing.

Here is what I suspect. While the above is going on the DNR will ask for assistance on the rehab work well before anything on the actual ORV is done being planned.. Again that is only speculation but I would not be shocked if thats how it turns out..

But if it boiled down to doing rehab work or ORV work we would put forth our energy torwards the ORV side of it.

[jobless]

Thank you, you prooved my point, the DNR released draft plan that has them accountable for nothing. I say nothing because they have not committed to any schedule...could be next month...could be next year...could be a decade from now.

[crash]

Thank you, you prooved my point, the DNR released draft plan that has them accountable for nothing. I say nothing because they have not committed to any schedule...could be next month...could be next year...could be a decade from now.

Never said they did ;)

This very fact was stated over 2 years ago when they showed the timeline.

Heck they could shit can the whole thing.

[The Shocker]

How can they give us a timeline when they don't even have a FINAL plan developed yet? They also "Estimated" it could be as much as $9M for everything they would like Reiter to be. Without having $9M in their budget to put towards Reiter how can they tell you what will be done when? Tahuya has a new bridge that cost as much as what DNR has set aside for the initial funding ($140K).

[Binder]

They could give us a timeline for the work planned with the current budget. Once you have a timeline established and a work plan you could then make a estimate of man hours needed and figure out how many volunteers will be needed on a average weekend to do the work. Then you can ask volunteers how much time they would commit to volunteering......Until this happens you won't have a clue if you will have the resources to accomplish anything.

[crash]

They could give us a timeline for the work planned with the current budget. Once you have a timeline established and a work plan you could then make a estimate of man hours needed and figure out how many volunteers will be needed on a average weekend to do the work. Then you can ask volunteers how much time they would commit to volunteering......Until this happens you won't have a clue if you will have the resources to accomplish anything.
IMO thats where volunteer's will greatly help. Now granted I understand that in itself can only go so far on a limited budget.

[jobless]

They could give us a timeline for the work planned with the current budget. Once you have a timeline established and a work plan you could then make a estimate of man hours needed and figure out how many volunteers will be needed on a average weekend to do the work. Then you can ask volunteers how much time they would commit to volunteering......Until this happens you won't have a clue if you will have the resources to accomplish anything.

Ditto, this isn't rocket science but they sure avoid it like the plague.

Why do you think they do that?

If you commit to nothing, you can therefore not be held acountable. Hell knows you wouldn't want the entire ORV community on the west side of the State pissed at ya :rolleyes:

[Tod701]

Realistically, hiking, mountain biking and horse usage at Reiter is a farce. It has to be included because the DNR is governement, they are therefore required to include everyone so as to not discriminate.

Not a requirement, its a choice.

Every type of trail user is not faciliated at most other DNR managed land.
Why just here?
Because the anti-ORV gangs pushed and the DNR folded.
My SEPA comments will strongly reflect that.

Furthermore, non-motorized recreation is allowed on all DNR trails.
Ever seen a motorized use only trail on DNR managed land?
Like in, walk the trail = get a ticket?
In reality everyone is included at Reiter even if every inch of trail is designated open to motorized use.

[Tod701]

They could give us a timeline for the work planned with the current budget.

You would not like what you would see. :(

Unless the NOVA funds are rescued, the DNR has almost zero to spend on Reiter. Either the WOHVA / NMA lawsuit prevails and we see NOVA grant funding via the RCO in 2010 or we wait until 2011 and hope that the democrats in the Legislature don't screw us again.

[Tod701]

They also "Estimated" it could be as much as $9M for everything they would like Reiter to be.

Even if the NOVA funding is restored, that kind of money would take over a decade to secure using RCO administered NOVA and NRTP grants.

[Binder]

You would not like what you would see. :(

Unless the NOVA funds are rescued, the DNR has almost zero to spend on Reiter. Either the WOHVA / NMA lawsuit prevails and we see NOVA grant funding via the RCO in 2010 or we wait until 2011 and hope that the democrats in the Legislature don't screw us again.

Mark quoted IIRC a $180,000 budget for the first phase of Reiter at the Monroe meeting last month. It's a question of timeline and work planned.

[Binder]

I agree the $9 million number is a pipe dream at best.

[85bronco2man]

so The way i understand this is RTW was started to include everyone bikers,qauds,hikers,4wheelers,campers all types or recreations at reiter pit (correct me if i'm wrong crash)
so as a part of rtw and as a wheeler i will be there working on restoration.
i would be willing to bet if we go to the other groups and say hey we need to correct whats been done but we need some help, i would bet there will be some people willing to come and help out help out

but on the otherhand if your only willing to help Blaze new trails and not help in the restoration that i would be willing to bet DNR would be less inclined to let us help make the trails

we will also have less resistansce from the non-motorized comunity about making trails if we fix the others :)

[98ZJ4X4]

Ditto, this isn't rocket science but they sure avoid it like the plague.

Why do you think they do that?

If you commit to nothing, you can therefore not be held accountable. Hell knows you wouldn't want the entire ORV community on the west side of the State pissed at ya :rolleyes:

I agree, this is not "Rocket Science", but it is Government Bureaucracy and we can not avoid that no matter what we do at this point. If you or anyone wishes to point fingers at the people responsibly for this state of affairs, point them at your selves as Voters of this State, you voted for the Asshats that have passed the laws and made the regulations that are choking the shit out of not only us but lots of activities in Washington.

These are the same people that voted to take the NOVA Funds and move them to State Parks and yes we elected them to office. But I think that they have forgotten in a lot of ways and so have the voters that they are elected to "REPRESENT US" not push their own person agendas which is what is happening today with 99.9% of all elected officials at all levels of Government.

DNR in my view and based upon my experience in dealing with various State and Federal Agencies is doing a good job, and they have stated that they support an ORV Presence at Reiter and they are working toward that in the manner proscribe to them by the laws and regulations.

I hope the above explains your "Why do you think they do that?" question.

In todays society how many times have you heard about frivolous Law Suits not only being filed, but outrageous awards being made in them. Lots I would bet I know I have and it makes me sick. This is the type of thing that DNR has to protect its self from and in doing so is also protecting us as Citizens and tax payers of the State.

Maybe over the years I have attended too many training sessions or been told I could not do things the way I would like because of the possible liability to the company or government agency I was working for. Some of these things I know would have saved thousands of dollars, but there are bigger pictures out there and we have to open our eyes and see that. That does not mean stop questioning by any means at all, it just means to not allow ourselves to get tunnel vision on one little aspect of the greater whole.

DNR will never have the entire West Side ORV Community pissed at them, but by the same token they will never make all of them happy either.

Now that in my view explains why you are not getting specific dates and minute details on the plan. The Big Picture (which is general in nature) has to be approved first, then some of the next steps can start to take place based upon resources (Resources = Money, Labor "Volunteers"). As we move along I think we will start to see some firm cast in concrete plans, time lines and costs, but they will be small segments and come very piece meal, but that is the nature of Government operations.

[jobless]

I hope the above explains your "Why do you think they do that?" question.



My question was rhetorical, but thanks.

[War-Jeeper]

Okay i havent been keeping up on this thread until now and i just read through everything on here.

Im actually more inclined to lean towards the same way as Brad and Rick on this one but in a sort of different aspect.

Im more looking at all the dollar signs that pop up with creating an ORV area and what they are going to have to spend to please all the "greenies" enough to even think about re-opening the area again. So i get the same feeling of working a lot of hard man hours for what could be nothing after we are done "restoring" the area again.

Im actually more inclined to get more involved with the Rainer Ridge Rams and put forth my hours into something i know is solid and will be there years down the road so i know my work is going towards making a place better and mainting it.

Thats just my .02 cents and totally personal opinion, and until i see a solid date and time line of whats going to happen for the ORV area at reiter i dont know how much i will be helping out, as ive already put forth a lot of my time and money into the place at this point

[jobless]

There was a group of us that used to help support the Northern Toys at Walker Valley before the RRR club was involved...we lost interest after hearing the DNR tell us that they would allow us to build a kick ass trail if we do "this" first..."this" dragged on forever and we never saw our kick ass trail.

Walker Valley is the example that the DNR and the ORV community want to use for Reiter, it works.

Time will tell.